What We Carry Through Birth: A VBAC Journey with Chana Leah

Trigger warning: This episode includes discussion of prenatal suicidal thoughts, birth trauma, and addiction within a family. Please take care while listening.

In this episode, I sit with Chana Leah Bleznik for a real and layered conversation about her VBAC journey and everything that surrounded it: the fear, the pressure, the unexpected turns, and the experiences that stayed with her long after birth.

We talk about her first birth and the trauma that followed, what it was like going into future pregnancies carrying that with her, and how her relationship to her body and herself shifted over time.

Chana Leah also shares about experiencing suicidal thoughts during pregnancy, growing up around addiction, and what it looked like to navigate all of that while becoming a mother.

This conversation moves through a lot. Quietly, honestly, and in her own words. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Before we begin, I want to offer a soft heads up. In this conversation, we talk about birth, VBAC, traumas, prenatal suicidal ideation, and the impact of addiction within a family. If any of those things feel tender for you today, please take care of yourself in whatever way you need. Pause the episode, skip ahead, step away, or come back when it feels right. We're glad you're here at whatever pace works for you. Welcome to Evening Tea, a slow after bedtime space for women who are exploring motherhood differently. Here we talk about the things you whisper about with your closest friends. The tender, the intuitive, sometimes controversial. Pregnancy, home birth, postpartum healing, vaccines, natural health, motherhood, parenting, identity, and everything in between. Nothing is off the table here. So pour yourself a cup of tea, take a deep breath, and settle in. I'm Claya, and this is the conversation that you've been craving. Tonight's conversation is one that I have been wanting to hear since we first discussed. I'm sitting down with Hanalea Blesnik. You guys might know her from Instagram, your curvy modest friend. She is someone whose motherhood journey includes two V-VACs and recovery spaces like Alan, navigating pregnancy while carrying a lot that wasn't always visible to the people around her. Now, this conversation isn't about doing birth or motherhood a certain way, but it's more about what it's like to live inside a body and a life where big decisions need to be made quietly, sometimes against fear, sometimes alongside fear, sometimes with intuition, sometimes with trusting the process. And I am very excited to hear about her experience. Hanalea, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so grateful that you're here.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah, I'm so, so excited. I can't wait. Let's get into it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Let's start from the beginning. How was your first pregnancy before that C-section?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah. So I um became from in college and then sped up my graduation so that I could get to Crown Heights because I was just like, you know, dying to be in the firm world. So love it. Yeah. So I was you don't hear that very often. Right, exactly. So I was from, right, as as now 10 years later, I just moved out of Crown Heights. So now I'm on the other side of that. But um I was from for probably like two and a half to three years before I made it to Crown Heights. I moved into the seminary dorm, and 18 months later, I got married to my husband. Um, we were real, real, yeah, exactly. We were a real shirach in this in the shiddoch system. He was the first person I dated. Love it. We had good friends. Yeah, yeah, thank God. So we met and got married um as quickly as our parents, our non-froom parents would allow us to be married, which meant we were engaged the entire sphera, which our Mashbiam were freaking out about because like that's too long. But so it was very quick. And then the night of my wedding, that is when, as we know now, Ellie came to be. My Shabashabrah, yeah, my Shabashava brah was I was throwing up in the bathroom and I was like, I think I'm pregnant. And the one of the Rabbitsons was like, No, you're not. And I'm like, No, I think I am, and I was. I was pregnant, so I didn't even know this man's legal name, and I was pregnant, um, which was thank you God, the biggest blessing. He just turned, we got married, uh, Yud Dalid Sivan, and he was born Yud Dalid Adar. So nine months later. His briss was on our 10-month wedding anniversary. He just turned seven on perm day. He's happy birthday. Yeah, he is um my mini me in all ways, good, bad, and the seriously ugly. So he definitely keeps us on our toes. But yeah, so that was crazy because I barely knew this man. And then I was yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Wow. I'm so curious if you could answer what was that like for him being like freshly married and dealing with a pregnant spouse.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Well, I think it was definitely psychotic on all levels for all parties involved.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

I grew up thinking that maybe we should get divorced because he brought home the wrong size curd cottage cheese. Like it was just nuts. It was, it was nuts. And I was very, very sick. I have hyperemes when I'm pregnant. So I was so sick.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Tell us what hyperemesis is for.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah, so hyperemesis gravidium is like you throw up so much. Like in my entire pregnancy, 42 weeks, I gained five and a half pounds with my first just like a severe, severe, severe, severe amount of vomiting. So which was really exciting. So I have that when I'm pregnant. And so I was dealing with that. I it was the first time I'd ever lived with a boy. It was the first time I was ever living on my own. It was my first, I started my first real job. I mean, the week after my shovel brought host because I moved from college into seminary, so I had never actually worked. I was, I remember like crawling into a ball with my shaytal on underneath my desk in my office and sleeping because I was so sick and pregnant and I just like could not keep my eyes open. And I was living across the country. My parents were in Arizona, we were in Crown Heights. It was kind of like I was thrown to the wolves. I mean, in the best way possible, we had made that decision to not prevent getting pregnant. I thought, you know, oh, it might take me six months. What if it takes me six years? And it didn't.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

It didn't.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Thank you, God. Yeah, yeah, Bar Hashem. And uh yeah, it was very, very, very, very hard. It was very hard. It was very hard.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

I'm sure. Yeah. Wow. So through your pregnancy, I would I would love to hear if like if like how your pregnancy went and kind of what led to your c-section. Were you low risk? Were you high risk? Did you plan to have a c-section? What did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

So I was born myself personally, I was born at 28 weeks. My mom was in a coma when she was pregnant with me, and they were told I would never walk, I would never talk, they didn't even think I would live. So I was born with a disease called cyclical vomit. So I was born with a disease called cyclical vomiting syndrome, which is like hyperemesis, but I've had it since I'm I was diagnosed when I was seven. I was born with it. I have what I just call basically a throwing up disease. I just throw up all the time, like potentially a complication from my mom's severe hyper. My mom had such severe hyperemesis, the throwing up thing, that she her, she went into full organ failure and was put into a coma when she was pregnant with me. So maybe there's some relation there. Um, so I was born with cyclical vomiting syndrome. So I have dealt with that my whole life, like medically. And in my 20s, I got into such a bad throwing up cycle that I had full kidney failure. Um, my organs shut down from being so severely dehydrated from the throwing up. So I was not considered high risk, but like my doctor was like a little bit, a little bit concerned. And I was of the opinion at the time, like I said, I didn't have support from my not that I didn't have support, but my mom was across the country. Yeah. She's not from as she was as supportive as she possibly could have been, but like, who is this man? And now you're having a baby. What is happening here? And I was also going through a lot of my own personal stuff, which we probably will get into, or if we don't get into, I speak about extensively on other podcasts. Um, so I was pretty isolated. And the person who was acted as my mom and was like my supporter was my Mashfiya, who made my Shitta, who I lived with in the dorm. And she does home births. And I was like, I'm gonna sing kumbaya, and we're gonna bang on steel drums, and I'm gonna have three contractions, and the baby's gonna sing. That's literally what home birth is like. Yeah, 100%. He's gonna slide out of me, and we're gonna see God, and it's gonna be like like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

You described home birth perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Exactly. That is exactly, and I was gonna do it in a hospital, but I was like, that's what's happening. We're not doing an upper dural, we're not having an epesiotomy, we're gonna breathe, and it's gonna take five minutes and it's gonna be amazing. I'm gonna go into labor and it's gonna the baby's gonna be little, slide out, all good. So I didn't do any preparation other than this is my birth plan. And I then was diagnosed at 36 weeks with a heart condition that I only have during pregnancy. I, Barak Hashem, have three kids now, and I happen to have this heart condition at in my third trimester for all three of my kids. It's now something that I know to expect. It's called SVT. It happens in pregnancy sometimes. I had total cardiac workup, everything looked fine, but when you hook me up to like a heart attack monitor, it looked like I was having a heart attack. I wasn't, but the the readings were all wonky and crazy. So at 36 weeks, I went to my doctor and she said, I can no longer be your doctor. I cannot deliver you, and you need to be moved to this high-risk practice. And I was like, I'm very into um people's energies and my relationship with people. And I'm I'm an extremely sensitive person and extremely sensitive to just people's energies and auras and um how they show up in a room. And I need a very, I need very calming energy. So at 36 weeks, I remember standing in cons. Maybe I was in cold tube. I remember standing in cons or cold tube, just hysterically crying to my husband on the phone saying, I could have this baby at any minute and we do not have a doctor. So I was moved to what ended up being such hush ho practice and the biggest godsent in the world to the highest risk practice in Manhattan that delivered in Mount Sinai. But again, I only had like three appointments with these people before I delivered. And I was like, Oh, we're having this baby all naturally, and we're gonna make friendship bracelets during it. And they were like, as shit. Okay, lady. Like this is the highest risk practice in the country. Like, this is a place where people fly on private jets to go to seek their medical attention in pregnancy. Like, these people see the worst of the worst.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah, like they're the people who are expecting the worst, and you're coming in, like, yeah, we're gonna be chill, we're gonna have music, we're gonna be brief.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

It's like you don't even know how good of a time you're gonna have. Like that's what I was basically saying to them. Expect for the best. Yeah, of course, right. Chocks and good. And I was in that I was vibing with whatever that was.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

I'm obsessed with that energy.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah. So at 42 weeks, they're like, we're inducing you. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna be the fastest, coolest induction you've ever seen. And I was like, oh, and I'm not taking the epidural because that's poison. Whatever I said. Who needs that? I wouldn't even sign the paper, whatever. To make a long story short, after 24 hours of unmedicated, unmed un, it's not unmedicated labor. I was on Pitocin with a foley ball, but I had no epidural. I had no idea what to expect. The pain was astronomical.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

I wasn't dilating at all. I've learned a lot since then, but I wasn't dilating at all. So after 24 hours on the Pitocin, I was at like a four. The baby's heart was stopping. I was developing a fever. Um, and when the Bachrim were coming up to Mount Sinai to read McGill to me, they wheeled me off into an emergency C section. And that was absolutely my worst case scenario, times a thousand. Then when I was two weeks postpartum, my incision opened. And I had to have nursing in my home twice a day, every day, for like three months to change my wound, which was hectic. Yeah, it was super painful. I remember saying, I'm gonna cry. This, like I never think about this. The doctor was very familiar with from families. Like, you can make a minion in the waiting room of this OBGYN. There's always, it's like mostly Hasidish people. I remember when they told me that I was gonna have to have round the clock nursing and I couldn't hold the baby and I couldn't drive. And I started crying and I said, How am I gonna do this? And she said, Well, have your sister fly in. And I screamed, I don't have a sister. Like I had no one. I was a ball shuba in Crown Heights. My parents were across the country, my in-laws were two hours away. Like I had no one, and it was so hard. Traumatizing. And at my six-week postpartum checkup, I said to my doctor who ended up subsequently delivering my other kids by choice and is like a mother to me and save my life and my kids' lives. And um, but I didn't have that relationship with her at that time. I didn't even know this woman. And I said to her, I wake up in the middle of the night smelling the surgery. Like I can remember what it smells like and it what it feels like. And she said, Oh, you have PTSD. And she put me on medication. But it was so scary. Oh and I wasn't even married a year. So all the hard things and kinks that come with uh new marriage, and then we had this brand new baby who, thank God, was healthy and gorgeous and easy and slept and was amazing. Thank God. But I was so I was so physically unwell and emotionally unlike I was so unwell.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, this is also like not like not something you could even plan for. Yeah. Especially coming from the perspective of having a calm, simple birth without, you know, without even knowing what the possibilities could be. Because as first-time moms, I don't think we really do as like such extensive research into like the worst case scenario. And I think this is like an across the board issue, which is something that I'm working on addressing. Well, it's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I never think about my first because now I've had my third, and like I have a great system down now of how I have a baby that keeps me safe and baby safe and whatever. We don't know what we don't know. And when you're young, you are sure that you know it all. I was sure I knew it all. And I didn't need the worst case scenario because God designed me to do this. And why would God do like I was so sure of myself and of my relationship with God? And like I just I didn't know what I didn't know. And I wasn't, even if someone had said to me, You really need to look at all these options, I would have said, nope.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, because you like you don't, you, you weren't even expecting it. Like, first time mom, okay. Birth is natural, it'll happen, it happens for everyone else. Why wouldn't it happen with that?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

And my mentor at the time and my Mashvia, and the person who was in the delivery room with me and who was there for the labor had had eight kids at home in her bedroom and in one hour and does it easily and bing bing boom lunch. She goes to Empire Kosher after, like, so easy. Um and I think that I I definitely did not have that humility, but I was also surrounding myself with people who like had had that those experiences. And some people do have those experiences, and that's so beautiful. I have just learned that I I do not.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

I can't give birth at home because I can barely give birth at the top hospital in the country with 50 doctors in the room. Like I can barely survive birth in the most high risk of situations.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

So how was that for you navigating PTSD while being so newly postpartum?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Well, I think now, like of course, now it's hindsight, it's seven years later. I think it brought up so it re-triggered a lot of wounds for me. It re triggered wounds of my childhood that weren't related to my birth. It re triggered traumas that I had had PT that I definitely was suffering from PTSD from but had never addressed. So it just like ripped the band-aid off of every trigger and trauma that I had ever experienced. And I was just like malfunctioning. That's emotionally. Like inside. On the outside, we looked like so cute going to um of course.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

No one ever knows what's with the baby and what's going on on the inside.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

You know, like emotionally, I'm saying I I was malfunctioning to the highest level.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

That is so hard to navigate, especially without like parental support nearby. I'm so sorry you went through that.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah, it almost feels like a blur. Like, I'm sure I talked to my mom, but I can't even I can't even remember.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

It was so much about my medical, you know, it was so much about like my infection and stuff that it wasn't so much about how much I was struggling. Right. And I had wanted this baby so badly. And my husband was the best dad in the world and the most involved dad in the world. And the baby was easy and gorgeous and delicious, and people were like, How do you have such an easy baby? Like, you know, it all was looked fine. Yeah, like but it still wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, I'm I'm gonna backtrack for one sec. I wanted to ask you with your mom having that experience, having you were you scared of that happening to you, or did that affect how you went through your pregnancy?

SPEAKER_01 16:56

No, it never even crossed my mind. Okay, that's great. But then with my second pregnancy, when I was going for my V back and I was trying to do more emotional work about birth and pregnancy, I was working with a woman in Crown Heights. Now I'm blanking on her name, Chaya Strasberg, the angel. Yes, I was working with her, and we were talking a lot about letting go of those feelings because that subconscious stuff gets stored in your body, and then your body resists it, and you don't understand why you're not dilating, and you're not understanding why you're not having these contractions, and you don't understand why you're not going into labor. Because subconsciously, like this was a story I had been told my whole life. And also when my mom, I'm an only child because of this. Obviously, my mom almost died. Um, and because of the situation and the stress and whatever, um, my dad was a recovering addict when my parents got married. And when my mom was pregnant with me, my dad relapsed into his addiction. So I also had those subconscious feelings and fears, and like that my birth, like, you know, ruined people's lives. And like I had so much, I had such a narrative inside of myself that I had to unlearn. But to unlearn it, I had to even acknowledge it. So during my second pregnancy, when I was working harder on that mind-body piece of it to try to achieve my V back, and I was working with Chaya, we we talked a lot about the generational what is the story in your family about birth, and what is the story in your family about having another baby? And it even went further back into what my grandmother's story was about my mom's birth and how I was carrying that with me and the traumas of that. And yeah, so I had to I had to acknowledge that that was even something inside of myself before I could work through it.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah. Wow, that's it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah, it's so much work.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

It's a lot of work, it's so much work. Yeah. How did you feel going into your second pregnancy? First of all, when you realized that that was work you wanted to do, and secondly, when you were carrying the idea of doing a VBAC.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yes. So I think there's two aspects of this. There was the medical side of VBAC, that I had a lot of extensive conversations with my doctor, who I shared, like me then became like a mom to me. Um, and we discussed the likelihood of that. I know this is something extremely taboo and uh controversial, but I weighed I weighed 80 pounds more then than I do now. And there was a lot of statistics about women with a certain BMI and their likelihood of achieving a safe feedback. Um I was advised by my doctor to decline an induction and to allow my body to go into labor naturally to give myself the best chance. So there was that aspect of it. Yeah. So there was that aspect of it like medically. And then emotionally, I guess it was like a, as my my husband says, which is not even a phrase I like, but it's so true. I was like a dog with a bone. There was nothing that was gonna stand in my way of having this V back. I like it. I almost didn't have it. And I actually gave birth to him in the OR because I almost did not achieve it. It was extremely dangerous at the end. And I did it by the grace of God. And my doctor, who knew that I needed this to heal my soul, was in the room. Thank God. Yeah, I know. Hashem always really and I had a great doula. I had a fabulous doula this time, someone who was aware of the situation and had worked in V BACs. I think I wrote to the Rebba every day, all day for nine months. I would sit on the front steps of the Rebbe's house and just leave him letters under his door. Um, I did like a million rounds of Nishmas. Like I was saying Nishmas Kochai, like my life.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

All the blessings.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Every blessing possible. And bottoms are with you. I started my minig of I take a dip in the Miklan my ninth month. Now I did it for him and for my third baby.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

I love it. That's my favorite min hug, by the way. I did it with my first, did it with my second.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I'm a boy mom at this point. I'm boy mom all the way.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

So I was just very intentional. I was I ended up becoming more intentional with my third, which was an easier V back. But yeah, there was nothing that could have stopped me. I made sure I hired the right do-li, made like, you know, all the things that I felt like I could control, I controlled. Jokes on me, we can't control anything. And giving birth and being a mother is the ultimate like lesson in that. But yeah, I did everything I could and and had to sign like a thousand-page document that said like I wouldn't sue them, the hospital or my doctor if I died. Like, you know, like all the things. All the things. Yeah. And I am and I did end up be backing with my second. He I went into labor at like 42 weeks. I was in labor for like 12 hours when I got to the hospital. My contractions were so on top of each other, we thought maybe I was gonna have the baby in the car, and I was dilated to a zero. And then I got an epidural. So I learned for myself, for me to have an epidural allows me to dilate. I think it allows me to relax my mind and my body from maybe my that makes sense. So once I'm able to get an epidural, I'm able to dilate. At 25 hours, Golda Reichmann was my doula who I will love forever. At the end of she and she wrote this story out on her Instagram because the labor was so intense. At 25 hours, the doctors came in and said, We're losing baby and now we're losing mom. You have three minutes to coach her. And if this baby is an outwork, but we're putting her under. Um, so they wheeled me into the OR. There was like every doctor in the hospital in the room, the NICU team, everyone was there. It was a really good party. And she said, You have three minutes to coach her. Mom has a fever and we're losing mom. And we were gonna lose baby if this baby does not come out. And my doctor, oh my God, this is so I never think about this. Jesus. And my doctor came up to my head and said, uh, we're gonna use, do I have permission to use forceps? And I said, brain damage. And she said, no. And I said, do it. And he was born like 20 seconds later. Yeah. Yeah. So that I felt like I could give you a hug right now. That's so that's not even like the end of the story, but I felt like a warrior. And and you know, I do curvy, modest fashion influencing. And someone asked me on a QA this week, how did I become so confident and comfortable in my body? And I said, like the power I yielded inside of my body for two V backs and having gone through the C-section, like I realized this vessel is so important and powerful. And like I've been able to like sink into myself through seeing my soul encapsulated in this body and what it's gone through. Yeah. Whoa. Wow. Whoa, yeah, that was really a scary time. Barry. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Follow-up questions, and I don't even know where to go from there. Whoa, that is a lot to hold.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yeah, so wait, it gets better than this kid who's my miracle baby, who, like, you know, was my V back angel at four weeks old, almost dies of meningitis. And we have a 31-day hospital stay. Yeah. Spinal surgery and all. Yeah. Oh, oh my God. Yeah, the trauma was so flippin' real. Yeah. Really. At four weeks old? Yeah, a month old. And I was at my personal lowest emotionally. My marriage was at my low, our at our lowest. It was just, it was awful.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Really? You're such a warrior.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah. No, so I'm saying, like, I have done since then so much healing. That's four and a half years ago. I have done so much healing since then. Externally, internally, with my marriage, with friendship. Like, I'm, I I don't know, I don't even know that girl who was that mom, that 26-year-old mom. But I have so much compassion and love for her. Wow. It was awful. I remember saying to the doctors, you cannot let this baby die. Like, you cannot let this baby die. And he didn't die, and he's so flippin' loud, and he's four and a half, and he only wears purple, and he's he's everything. I love it and he said to me this yesterday, he said, Mommy, ask me what I want to be when I grow up. I said, Mayor, what do you want to be when you grow up? He said, A towel. What's better than that?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Literally, no, that's that's peak.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

That's peak parenting. I love it. He's your miracle baby. He is my miracle. I mean, they all are, but he is of course and he is my biggest test in this life. And yeah, he is my miracle. And his name is Mayor Gadalia. Like, duh. Like, I should have known that. Like, duh. Like, whatever. I I gotta be more careful with the names next time.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Wow. Were you do you remember being present in that birth? Or were you like disassociated and like not really aware of what was going on?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

So something I've learned from my second baby to my third is I I'm uncomfortable when people are taking care of me. I want to be the taking career. So I was cracking jokes and I and people were like, this is like a this room is like a comedy show. Like I'm pretty naturally quite funny. And um, especially in like scary situations, like I can make it real, you know, dark humor type vibes. So I was really doing that. So I realized that that was not in my best interest anymore. Once I had my third baby, I went the total opposite way, and you weren't even allowed to speak in my room, and I was wearing an iMass smelling lavender with headphones on. Like now I'm not on stage. Like I'm trying to do like some real holy work here. But so no, I was totally performing. No, I don't think I don't know that I was disassociated. I did then start to like slip away, like literally, like physically, not mentally. Like I remember like blacking out and them saying, like, we're losing mom now. They thought my incision was rupturing. I remember like being in so much physical agony and pain, even with the epidural, that like maybe something was seriously wrong. Um, but I don't remember disassociating. I remember being feeling like I needed to be so on to be worthy of people's care in order for them to help me to achieve my V back. Like I had to win their favor.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

So I remember that. I feel like that's such a hard spot to be in when you're giving birth because it's literally like the most vulnerable space you could be in. And feeling like you have to give in order to get is like the exact opposite of what you're doing. And you're so at the mercy when you're when you're at someone else's mercy for their care. Like you need to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

You're at the mercy of did you get assigned to a good nurse? You're at the mercy of, did you get assigned to a nurse who's gonna see you through this? And it it was Hashkhaka protest because I did not, I did not have an induction for that baby. And it was Hashka protest that like when we got to the hospital, the doctor from my practice who I knew was like kind of incision happy, was leaving call. And the next person on call for 24 hours was my doctor, like who was like my mom. And I remember saying to Golda, oh, we're gonna be safe. Like we're gonna be fine. So you're so at the mercy of just Hashem and Hashgal Khapratis and who's put in that room, you know? And so yeah, I just remember looking at Golda and saying, Oh, we're gonna be safe. Like, thank you, God. And um, we were safe. I mean, it ended up being extreme, like a very scary lit labor and delivery, but we were safe. And my mayor has like their six pictures in the world, just like my father-in-law. And we say it's because he was pulled out with his forceps. He's just got like these huge ears. It's not, but that's what we say.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

It's genetic. That's really cute. He's the cute. Wow, no, literally, Hashem puts exactly who you needed in that room and exactly who he knew was going to be able to support you for that v back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

But sometimes my plan, maybe me being supported by Hashem, was that I was gonna have a C-section because maybe the alternative would have meant I didn't bring home a baby. Like I I I have had to lean every labor and delivery and pregnancy like deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into like, okay, Hashem, like this is so not up to me, even though I have this illusion of control.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah, I literally felt that way in my second birth. I'm not gonna get into the whole story, but in my first birth, I thought I had a lot more control over like pushing my baby out. And it was very apparent that I did not because it took me four and a half hours of pushing to get my baby out. Um, versus my second, where I literally like what's the right word? Like surrendered that control to Hashem. And I was like, You're in charge. Make sure that I am safe, make sure my baby is safe. He was out in like an hour of not crazy pushes.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Literally, with my third act, that so reminds me, with my third baby, I had again, I and with my third baby, I um was like, we're doing a better V back this time. Like, we had one V back this time, we're doing it even better. So I lost like 65 pounds. I was working out every single day. I was running up until my 40th week of pregnancy. Like I was working out with a trainer, I was working with Golda Reichmann again to do like pregnancy-related exercises. I was in incredible physical shape. And I had hired a doula that was gonna help me with V back, and the day of my labor, she told me she was not coming. And I it was crying, and I was at Artisan Bake House. Nope. I'm saying it was raining, and I was standing outside Artisan Bake House sobbing, and I was like, How can you do this to me? Like, I have done everything right, and now you're gonna leave me in my last moment. Like, what on earth? And then, like you said, I had to surrender. My substitute Zula, who I had never met one time in my life, came out. That's so scary. Yeah, it was so scary, so scary. A lot of other horrible things happened that day that like everything was going to shit. But this woman who I had never met once in my life came. I pushed twice, the baby came out. Like, like to to just like it's been such a lesson for me in like my amuna and my batachan, like to just every time I'm having another baby, like to just be challenged in how deeply can you invite Hashem into this space? Like, how deeply can you invite Hashem into this situation with you?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Yeah, but wow. Literally, Hashem is in control of every single thing that happens, and everything happens for a reason. Doesn't mean we always see the good in it, but everything happens for a reason. Wow. 100% something you mentioned to me when we were doing the prep for our chat was that you experienced suicidal ideations during one of your pregnancies. All three. I would love during all three. Oh wow. I would love to make a space for that to be spoken about because I don't think it's spoken about enough. I don't think there's enough awareness about prenatal mental health.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

If you're ready to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah, yes, yes, yes. I've done a previous podcast about it, so I am able, ready and able, but I am a ball shuba and I have never given up my reality TV. And because of that, I watched this crazy show called The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, and I am um in deep and addicted. And the fur, I don't know, like a year ago, right when I started my Instagram page, one of the women on the show was pregnant and she took a break from filming because she was experiencing prenatal suicidal ideation. And I was watching this on like this massive network where these people get, you know, they have 50 million TikTok followers, whatever. Like this huge platform and someone's talking about it. And I remember bursting into tears and calling my mom and saying, like, oh my gosh, someone is talking about this, like on this massive platform. Like, this is going to, this is like everything to me. This is this is so, this is everything to me. I'm trying to think. Oh, I must have had my third baby by that point already. Um, but it was not a conversation that anybody ever was having. If you Google prenatal suicidal ideation, literally like nothing comes up. The suicide hotline comes up, and then there's like one study. It's there's nothing. There's absolutely nothing. The only other people that I had ever known to speak about it were was Meghan Markle. Like I'm saying, like, nobody is talking about this. And in my first pregnancy, every day I would wake up and it was so like external, literally felt like a bubble, and it was like, I should kill myself. That was like my first thought. I would never, and I never had a plan. It, but it was just like this very pervasive, external, what feels hormonal thought. You know what I mean? But I thought it's like, okay, I just like got married, I got pregnant on my wedding night. Like, life is crazy. I'm trying to figure out how to be an adult. Like, of course, life's hard. Like, I'm just being emotional. Then I had my second baby, and right away in my pregnancy, I had I should kill myself. I should kill myself. I should kill myself. I should kill myself. No plan, obviously, never like, you know, nothing like that. Just like this again, this very pervasive feeling in my brain and in my psyche. I should kill myself. I should kill myself, goes away when I have the second baby. I'm like, okay, that's weird. Like my marriage was in a really, really hard place. Like I was very stressed out about having this V back. All makes sense. Then I'm having my third baby. I've lost almost 100 pounds. I'm in a great place mentally. I'm in 12-step recovery for I grew up with addiction. My grandfather and my dad were addicts. I've dealt with a lot of my sexual trauma and abuse, and I've really dealt with it. I have an unbelievable solid group of girlfriends. I have a gorgeous apartment. I've got a great job. My husband has a great job. I'm super close with my in-laws now. Everything is great. This baby like came in such love before I even peed on the stick. I knew I was pregnant because I got I woke up. I want I'm gonna kill myself. I should kill myself. I should kill myself. I should kill myself all day. I should kill myself. Running on the treadmill. I should kill myself. Like, and I said it to, and like and like I mentioned before, I go to like this very, very fancy high-risk practice in the middle of Manhattan, like a Chanel store across the street, type vibes. Like this, these are people who know what the heck is going on in life. And I remember saying it to my doctor, and she like flipped the piece of paper over and wrote suicidal question mark and pencil. And I thought, I'm gonna get my children taken away from me. Like I can't, like, why did I say this? Like, what am I doing? But I I just wanted someone to know that this is how I feel when I'm pregnant. And they never addressed it again with me. And I was actually grateful for that because I didn't want my kids to be taken away from me. I didn't want to go to a mental hot. I I just needed to be able to say out loud to someone, like, this is now my third pregnancy in a in a really, really different headspace, and everything in my life is right. So now that I've seen, you know, like a hazaka, like after three times, I'm realizing that like this is something that I'm just gonna be struggling with hormonally in my pregnancies. And it goes away when I have a baby when the baby's born. Like it's awful and it's sometimes debilitating. And like I said, I did everything right. I've had three babies in three vastly different life circumstances, and that's just what happens to me.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

By your third pregnancy, is that the first time you brought it up to the doctor?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yes. Yes, it was the first time I brought it up to my doctors. Yes. I had the support of my husband at the time, my best friend, and my mom and my mother-in-law. So I knew if they were gonna take my kids or if they were gonna take me somewhere. I had all of these very competent, capable adults that could have and my doctor at that time was already so close to me and knew me like the back of her hand, and I she was like my mom. Like I knew I was safe.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

I feel like you could trust saying that to them.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah. But but I was still terrified, of course.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Of course, yeah. For sure. Yeah, no, that's a very scary thing to it's a very scary thing to feel, it's a very scary thing to go through. I feel like it's even scarier to say it out loud.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

But I couldn't oh my god. I couldn't not say it out loud anymore. Because it was so dark. I had to say it out loud because I was struggling so bad.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

If there was something that you could look back on from each of your pregnancies, specifically surrounding the suicidal ideation, what do you think is something that could have supported you during that time? And obviously it's hindsight. So I want to clarify the the goal of my question is for awareness for someone else who might be dealing with this, and what might have been helpful for you that might be helpful for them to hear. Gosh, I don't even know.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

I think there is power in being able to share without fear of, I don't know, because you know what? It's such a fine line. Because just because I didn't have plans to hurt myself doesn't mean that somebody else with suicidal ideation doesn't. So I was gonna say, like, just to be able to share without fear of like retribution, but maybe someone else in the situation does need that help. Right. Do you know what I mean? Did you work with a therapist at the time or a mental health counselor? Um, no. So I wasn't working with a therapist at the time, but I was attending like four um four 12-step meetings a week. So that's like therapy on steroids times 100, and working with my Al-Anon sponsor. So that's like even more than therapy. So I was very much keeping up with not only my physical health, but my mental health as well during the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Do you think that would be important for someone to hear, let's say someone who's not within a 12-step program, or has that style of support? Yeah. To be speaking to a mental health counselor and making sure that there's someone there who knows what's going on with them. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

But with a caveat, I don't even think mental health professionals know what to do with that. Because I think the question you're gonna get is do you have any plans to hurt yourself or your children? Do you know what I mean? I think that's the question you're gonna get. And I understand that question, but that's so not what I needed. Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Like for you, it was the thoughts. It wasn't an actual plan. It was the consistent, intrusive thoughts of yeah, yeah. Over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

So, yes, of course. And I encourage people to work as hard as they can to create a community for themselves and a tr and a tribe. I understand how difficult it is to not have one. I'm an only child, my husband is an only child. We did not grow up from like we are like when people say, Where are you going for pays off? Like, where the heck do you think I'm going for Pesoff? Right here. Like, where else am I going for Pesock? I don't have a sister, I don't have a sister-in-law, I don't have a cousin, I don't have an aunt, I don't have a bobby. Like, where am I going for Pesock? Like, you know? So I understand what it's like to really be alone. But I also know that you can't be a victim of your life circumstances, and there's is so much in your control, and you can create a tribe for yourself. And if you're struggling doing that, um, someone actually just asked me this because I just moved from Crown Heights to Arizona after living in Crown Heights for 10 years. Like, how are you dealing with making new friends? And I just keep saying, I just keep asking Hashem to please put the right people in my path. Let me smile at the right person and preschool drop off.

unknown 40:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Like I just have to keep inviting Hashem into that situation for me to put those right people in my path. So I understand how isolating it is and I understand how scary it is to share those thoughts with someone who's maybe not safe. I've shared things with people that I thought were safe that were not safe people, and it has come back to bite me tenfold. And I so understand that pain and that gun shyness to that experience. But I think it's like you you it's twofold. You have to keep asking Hashem to put the right people in your life, and then you also have to take, you know, the bull by the horns and get the help when you need it to the right professional. And I I spoke with uh Vicky's Jula services. I did her podcast about parental suicidal ideation and she Oh, and her and I were talking a lot about that. We wish that this was something that was even a topic of conversation with call classes that, hey, when you get pregnant, you may not everybody, but you can experience these thoughts and these feelings, and these are normal. And if this is something you are experiencing, you're not the only woman. And it doesn't mean you're not grateful for your baby, and it doesn't mean you're not grateful to be pregnant, because I spoke with her about that. I have friends who have been married longer than me who struggle with infertility. And I have three beautiful children, and I, you know, I'm able to conceive easily that that's not my test in this life. I have way more things that other people don't want that I have to deal with. Hashem has not given me that test.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Um, and but it's even if not, it's still something that's not spoken about. And I agree it should be spoken about in call classes because that's that's a starting point for learning about sexual health, reproductive health, and that encompasses so much more than just intimacy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Like there needs to be intimate, and then when you're intimate, this is what might happen. You can get pregnant. And then if you get pregnant, I want you to know that this is a real possibility. And even with Hassan classes, because my husband didn't understand why his young wife wanted to kill herself.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Yeah. You know, I have a lot of bones to pick with Husan classes because there's a lot of things that are skipped right over that are necessary to be discussed. Um, but it's something that actually I like thought about a little while ago of creating a network of college teachers who have at least resources. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

But the thing about this whole perenatal suicidal ideation, even not in the firm world, there are no resources.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

What resources could there be? Like, I never experienced that, so I wouldn't even be able to know where to start.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

I think it's like a similar question to saying, like, what can we do to help with postpartum depression? Like, at least if you could have another woman to say basically what happened on my Instagram page is at the time I did not even have that many followers, maybe 3,000. And I made this video, and I was like, I cannot believe they're talking about this on this show. Like, I have experienced the exact same thing, and I must have gotten, I don't know, 500 DMs, 600 DMs. Maybe the post has 80 comments. And like I had a very small following at the time. The video is like six minutes long. Like it's it's it's a very long video that it's not being pushed to other audiences because it's it's too long for the algorithm of people being like, oh my gosh, I didn't have words to put to it until you just said that. I have nine kids. Like, you know, and I have the I experience the same thing. So I think that one, it's empowering people and teaching women about even the language of how to call this.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Yeah. That this is what this is called. Trusting your village and creating your village early enough that you know you have their support no matter what. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

But it's so that's so not easy because friends happen, people change and people get married and friendships, you know, ebb and flow. It's so hard. So I can't it just like it's it's just inviting Hashem into the situation. But then also, yeah, I guess like the same thing that they do with postpartum depression. There's postpartum depression mom support groups. There's you know, that you can meet up with on Wednesday morning, and we have calls. Coffee or whatever it is, you know, to to to maybe have just a more or if you hear that someone has postpartum depression, you're not like yeah, like it's so normal.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Like it's like something we'll discuss. And yeah, like girl, I got you. When you hear that, we're all here for each other. It needs to be the same way.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Or there's no if if you're having horrible postpartum depression, there might be a meal train for you. If you want to kill yourself when you're seven months pregnant, no one's bringing you a lasagna. You know, like if we could just change the stigma around, but it's that it's that's just that larger mental health piece. And thank God I feel like I have really tried to move the needle. I participate with Nishamas and was when I lived in Crown Heights, spoke at their in-person events about addiction in the Frim community and um really have my pulse on the my finger on the pulse of that in the Frim world in terms of addiction. So I think this is just another one of those pieces, but it's not a FRIM world thing. It's not like, oh, we're in the archaic world. It's the whole belt as a whole that doesn't understand this at all. Like when Meghan Markle said it, and people were like, Okay, crazy lady.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

That's insane that there isn't like there are billion like there are eight billion people in the world.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

And if you go to suicidal ideation, it just gives you like the suicide hotline number, and then it says, like, women at the most risk for suicide are pregnant, but there's no research, there's no anything, there's no, there's nothing. So I wish I had an answer. I don't. No. The only answer I have is that on my very public platform where I interface with close to a million people a month, I talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

I wonder if it would be helpful for someone to hear that. Number one, that they're not alone. Yeah, of course. Number two, that if this is something you're going through and you hear that there's someone else who went through it, reach out. Yeah. Like send a DM. It's that simple. Just to even say it, say something like that out loud to someone who understands what you're going through could be helpful. Even if there's no like long-term plan with that.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

No, a hundred percent. That's what I'm saying. Like, I didn't have a long term, my long-term plan was give birth. And once I give birth, I stop wanting to kill myself. But the my long-term plan about sharing about it is not that I'm starting an organization or that I'm starting a this. Like, I'm not. I show you clothes on Instagram. Like, I have a nine to five job, and then on after my nine to five, I wear pretty clothes on Instagram. I have no plan about how to do anything other than to say, Hey, I've experienced this. You know, you're not alone. This is the language to put to it. This is my experience when I shared it with my doctor. These are what my fears were that I would, you know, be sent somewhere. Like, you know, just because when you say something out loud, it's so much scarier in your head, no matter what it is. If you had a fight with your husband, it's scary in your head. If you if you have a regret in life from fourth grade that you were mean to a girl and it keeps you up at night, anything that you keep in your head is so much scarier. And when you're able to say it out loud to someone trusted, it takes like you like put a pin in the in the balloon. Like, like it just deflates the monstrosity that you create it to be in your mind. It takes away the power of whatever that thing is and gives you the power back, like as the person to repeat your enemy of your mental health, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Like sharing things, obviously, in a trusted setting. You don't want to be saying things to the wrong people or to people who are unsafe. Which sometimes you have to learn by trial and error. Sometimes you have to learn, exactly. Which is painful, yeah, very painful. For sure. Very painful. Oh my god, very painful.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Extremely there are kids, there are kids that I my kids will never be able to date because I like I'm saying it's something that permeates my whole life that I hope I don't run into them at the grocery store. Like it it's very, very painful, but that's just like it's like it's the human condition, you know? That is life.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah, exactly. It's part of it's part of life and it's part of life experience. And one bad experience doesn't mean every bad experience is this sorry. One bad experience doesn't mean every experience will be bad. 100%. Wow. Is there anything that we didn't touch on that feels important for you to say out loud here?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Um, so I think in my motherhood journey and through the lens of motherhood, and I've touched a little bit in my conversation with you here that I experienced a lot of abuse and a lot of trauma as a child growing up. Something that I'm learning now, as a in my as a 31-year-old mom of three, is that my parenthood journey is almost more about reparenting my little self than it is about parenting these little people. And for me, and for women to be able to take back that power and to dive into ourselves as human beings and not just moms, is the biggest gift we can give our kids. I know for me, going out and pursuing career and going out and very heavily pursuing my healing, even if that means I miss a few bedtimes, is more valuable to them in the long run than it is for me to be tucking them in every night. And I think that sometimes it's very easy for us to get lost, especially if you're having babies in a higher volume or in a closer age, or if you are experiencing postpartum, or if you are experiencing perenatal or any of those roadblocks that you tell yourself why you can't do it. And I'm not saying you have to have a career, absolutely not. But I am saying that I think it's very important and it's a mission of mine to let women know that they really do have the permission to reparent their inner child and to dive into that, whatever that looks like. Even if you didn't have a hard childhood, no one I think comes out of childhood unscathed. And I wish that I would have known myself better before I became a mom. Um, because I really do feel like I've grown up with them. But just the humility of that and sharing my experience of that with other people. Not that I, for one second, wish that I didn't have had my son right away, but I wish I would have known how to take better care of myself before I did. Because the system I think is so much about like graduate high school, go to seminary, get married, but like who are you?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Who are you and where are your wounds? It's almost like a double-edged sword because I'm in the same boat with that mentality of like reparenting myself while I'm parenting my kids and like really learning about myself now. And I almost like there's there's days where I get like upset and I'm like, why? Like, why couldn't I have done this healing work before I got married or before I had kids? And then the the the other edge of that is I wouldn't have known to.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Well, right, exactly. So that's like that's what I'm saying. It's like I don't have answers to anything because everything is Hashkaha process and everything is Hashem's timing. And of course, like you said, I wouldn't have needed to confront my stuff that I didn't even know was my stuff unless a little two-year-old was looking in my face as I'm screaming at him and I'm realizing I don't want to be this adult. You know, like that would have I wouldn't, I wouldn't have screamed at the lady at Empire Coast or that that character defect of mine would have never come into my contact. It wouldn't have been staring me in the face.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

No, exactly. So I wouldn't have known to do all of any of this, and I, you know, I wouldn't have dived into any of this because all I wanted to do was be married. But I I I just think that we should give ourselves permission to be able to like simultaneously do both, you know, to reparent ourselves and to get in touch with our inner child and our inner compassion and love for ourselves while we parent them. And that's so flipping hard. I was literally talking on my Instagram stories yesterday about how hard it is to be a vessel for so many things at once and have so many things be true at once and like have these concurrent experiences all at once. And I feel like I'm gonna just like break and explode and crack. But maybe Hashem is stretching me right now, and maybe I am cracking, but I am not gonna break, I'm just gonna crack, and then it will fill it in. And so I guess just giving ourselves compassion and grace because that's what I really work hard to do, is to give myself grace.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Yeah, it's so, so important to not just give yourself grace, but also remember that where you're at in your journey is not the end of your story.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

I met a friend who became my best friend when I was 29 and I was pregnant with my third baby, and I'm like, oh, I peaked in high school, like my best years are behind me. She was like, No, no. And so, right, I'm trying to teach myself that too. Like, that's also so not true. Like, my life is not over.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Yeah. Yeah. No, I know that for me, it's been like a journey of like reminding myself that like your life is not over. You're 26 years old. Your life has barely started. Like, relax. You're not dying tomorrow. You have a whole life ahead of you. And like for me, it comes up a lot in like things I wish I did when I was younger, things I wish I did when I was single. And I'm like, yeah, I'll travel the world with my kids. And right, right, right. So I'm saying to my best friend, you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

I never got to be like, but you know what? It's like what we're saying. There's no answers. Because if I had been an older single going to Aruba for pay soft, because I was just like an older single with money and I had no responsibilities, I would want what I have now. And I have what I have now. I want to.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

So it's just like you have to just error Hashem has put you, but allow yourself compassion and and sh and love yourself. And it's so hard. It's so hard. But when I can be kind to myself, then I can be kind to my children. And when I'm not kind to myself and I'm beating up on myself all day, I am yelling at them. And, you know, I am not the mommy that they they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Um filling your cup is so important to pour into your kids. What do you do for self-care to fill your cup?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

My nails done every single week. Um, that is very important to me. That is super important to me. I love it. I go to four Al-Anon meetings a week, which is extremely important to me. Those are non-negotiables in my life, just like my nail appointment with Julie on Sundays at 2 30. Those are also non-negotiable for me. Love it, love it, love it. I get dressed every day, even when I don't want to, because I feel so much better when I do.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Oh, it's such a it's so real getting dressed every day.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

And another form of self-care is that I have really clear boundaries in my home with my children and with my husband that we are going to live in a really clean, organized space and we can work together to do that. No one is in trouble because there's underpants on the floor, but we do have to pick them up before we leave for school. So I'm able to put boundaries for myself and for my kids, and they help me load the dishwasher and they sweep up before we leave for school, and there are not toys on the floor when we leave. I have a very chaotic mind. My mind is like a scary place to be sometimes. So it's very busy, and I can go to the worst case scenario in about three seconds flat. So when I have a clean and organized home, it like allows me to have a much calmer nervous system, which in turn allows me to be like a better person to be around. I love that. Yeah. Oh, and I exercise. Oh yeah. And I yeah, I I exercise and um I've been able to keep my weight off for quite a few years at this point. So my um how I take care of myself is important. Oh, and I sleep! I get a lot of sleep. I get a lot of sleep. I go to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Sleep is a really underrated form of self-care, and I say that as someone who has not been getting enough sleep and it is affecting me. Yes. I go to sleep very, very, very early. I love it. I want to learn from you and I want to do that too. I mean, it's yeah, sleep is the best. So, yeah, so those are my things. Hanalea, thank you so much for trusting me and trusting this platform with your story.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

My pleasure. I hope someone heard something that they needed to hear. I always, when I'm speaking at engagements or conferences or wherever I'm speaking, I always ask Hashem beforehand, please put something in my mouth that someone, even one person, needs to hear today. So hopefully that one person can hear something here from you or from me that lets them know that they're starting alone.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Yeah. And I'm gonna put this out there for anyone listening. If you need support and you need someone to hear what you're going through, reach out. Send a message. People want to hear what you're going through, even if you feel like you're alone.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Sometimes it feels good even to just send the message if the person never even sees it. Or if you want to do that um tip, I think it's called letters at illabavage.org or something. I email the Reba 247. If I want to see out loud.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

I have the app on my phone.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Yeah, yeah, me too. No, I just emailed it. I just email the Rebba all the time. And I think this poor Israeli boy who's working at the desk is seeing these crazy emails coming in for me. And sometimes there's so many typos and they're like so many lines because I accidentally keep hitting the return and I just don't care. The Reba knows what I'm saying, and we're good. Me and him are good. So yeah, if you don't want to say it to me and you don't want to say it to Chaya, and you don't want to say it to anyone else, literally just write a letter to the Rebba in the email and can't even read it anyways, who's sitting at the desk.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

So exactly. He's not understanding what you wrote. And if you and even that, like, is so healing, by the way. Like, I've done that. I literally trauma dump on the Rebba all the time. Like not intentionally, but stop. This is what I'm going through. Help me figure it out. And I'm trusting that you're there for me. Yeah. And you don't get a response, and you just feel really good about saying it out loud. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Or not they even throw an emoji into my Reba letter. Like at the end of the thing, there's a key thing. In the Rebba are so absolutely. I put a heart.

unknown 57:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

You put the heart emoji, like the hand one.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Yeah, we're back. Thanks. It's fine. Something in 12 step that we call we do is we make something called a god can. We say, um, I can't, God can, I think I'll let him. So it's like a little box. And anytime, the same idea as writing to the Rebbe and being able to let it go. That's right. You write something down and you like make a god box. We call it like a god can or a god box, and it's like it's a shoebox or it's a whatever it is, whatever your vessel is. And you just write it down and you turn it, you fold it up and you turn it over to God and you put it in your god can.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

I love that, and I'm implementing that in my life.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Yeah, my girlfriends and I, we've done that like an activity where like we get crystals and we get tissue fever and we like, you know, do god can. So it's a really fun thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

I can't, God can. I think I'll let him.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

I love it. I'm writing it down. I don't have a pen, but I'll write it down. I love it. I'm gonna remember. I'll listen back when I'm editing. I'll write it down then. Thank you for spending this time with us. If this conversation stayed with you, consider sharing it with another mom who might need to hear it. Until next time, trust your intuition, move gently, and take care of yourself. Good night, mamas.