Two Things Can Be True: Trust, Birth, and C-Section Awareness Month

In this episode, we open C-Section Awareness Month with a real and needed conversation about the truth that two things can be true at once. A birth can be beautiful and hard. A mother can feel grateful and still hold pain. You can learn from an experience without forcing yourself to be “fine” about it.

Chani joins me to share her birth story. The fear, the loss of control, the trust she had in her providers, and the trust she struggled to find within herself. We talk about judgment between “natural” and “medical” birth communities, the pressure women feel to defend their choices, and what it actually means to trust your own body when the world is loud and your intuition feels quiet.

This conversation is honest, gentle, and validating for anyone who has ever felt conflicted about their birth story or unsure how to hold all the layers of it. Two things can be true: and you deserve space for all of it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Evening Tea. A slow after-bedtime space for women who are exploring motherhood differently.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Here we talk about the things you whisper about with your closest friends. The tender, the intuitive, and sometimes controversial. From pregnancy, home birth to postpartum healing, vaccines, natural health, motherhood, parenting, identity, and everything in between. Nothing is off the table here. So pour yourself a cup of tea, take a deep breath, and settle in. I'm Kaya, and this is the conversation that you've been craving.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Today feels like less of an episode and more like sitting with a friend, because that's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Ani is someone whose story needs to be shared, and I really wanted to have her on to share her story.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

The goal here is awareness, just to listen to her story. We're gonna be talking about her c-section, but not in a particularly polished way. Just honestly, what it was like, what she thought her birth would be, what surprised her, what was still beautiful from her birth.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I think sometimes, especially in more natural-minded spaces, there's this quiet pressure around birth and how it should look.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

This conversation is uh here to make space for getting rid of the word should. What do you think, Connie? I like that. I don't like the word should. I feel you. Yeah, if you're listening, you're pregnant or postpartum or carrying a birth story that doesn't quite fit into the box that you expected, sit nearby, listen, feel held. Thank you so much, Connie, for coming on evening tea. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

It's a pleasure to have you.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Um, just gonna give a quick PSA that we are recording during the day and we do have a baby on the loose.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

So if you hear baby noises, you know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Tell us about your pregnancy and leading up to your birth. What was your pregnancy like? How did you think your birth would go? So, first I want to thank you for having me here. I really like in your intro how you mentioned about like more holistic and like natural birth spaces, and how sometimes women who had maybe medical births, medicated births, or maybe a C-section like don't feel as welcome. And it's funny because the more that I like talk about birth with other mothers, I see that women who had more natural natural births feel the same about women who had more medicated births and how they don't feel like comfortable with sharing their experience. Yeah, yeah, from fear of judgment. And it's just so crazy how like both both groups just feel like uncomfortable sometimes with like sharing their experience in the fear that the other group will like judge them. It's funny, and I think we just need to communicate that more. I remember a friend of mine when she was pregnant, I was talking with her and I was like, How are you feeling? asked some you know the questions, and then I was like, Where are you like giving birth? Like, what's your what's your you know, what's your deal? And she was like so uncomfortable, and she said, I don't want any judgment, I don't want any like words of like judgment or your unsolicited advice, and I was like, What? She's like, I'm having a homework, and I was like, Amazing, that's great. And she was like so scared to like share that, not because she was scared I would judge her, but I guess she had other people in her life that judged her, and so she like came at that conversation in like sort of like a like sort of like on defense, and I was like, no, that's amazing, like I'm so happy for you, and that's great. So yeah, I just wanted to get that, like say that. Um, so my my pregnancy was mostly like a routine pregnancy. Um, I do want to know there was one thing that I feel like created like the undertone for my whole pregnancy. And at the beginning of my pregnancy in my first trimester, I had sort of like a little health scare. And once that happened, I started to feel from that moment that this pregnancy is not in my control. I felt like all my control was like taken away from me because I was so afraid and because I was dealing with something, not only a first-time pregnancy, but also something that I felt very overwhelming to me. So I would say that although my pregnancy like medically was regular and there was nothing out of the ordinary, I felt my entire pregnancy an undertone of a lack of control and a lack of agency over myself and over my own choices. So I feel like that also sort of like led into my birth, how it started and how it ended and how it went, which wasn't the best, but it is what it is, and it definitely was like a learning experience for me. Yeah. Yeah, I think it definitely colored my experience. And I don't want to say this in the sense that like I I learned and therefore like it's fine. Like I'm comfortable with holding like both things that like it wasn't the greatest experience in that sense, but I also learned for the future. I think that the best sort of I mean, this is my opinion, but the best sort of way to like approach your uh pregnancy or like your birth is like 50% trust and um like feeling safe with your providers, whoever that is, and then 50% feeling trust and feeling safe like with your within yourself and within your own choices. Like I really think you need to have both. You know, I don't mean 50% as in like you only feel half. I'm saying like both components really like are so important. And I definitely felt like the first half where I did feel safe and I did feel trust in my providers, but I didn't feel safe or trust within myself. So I think that also like colored a lot of my experience. Yeah, no, it's trust is so important. It's actually something that we spoke about on the podcast a few weeks ago when I had my midwife on. Um, trusting your body and trusting your instincts and trusting yourself. If someone's listening to this and you're preparing for a birth, learn how to trust yourself because it is the most important thing that is going to hold you through your birth. And one of the other things you mentioned that I want to just bring up to the light is two things can be true. It's okay to be upset about an experience that you had and also know that you learned something from it. And you don't have to be okay with the experience just because you learned something from it. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I think that we as a society, or maybe this is just something that I feel in my head, uh, we tend to like look at hard situations or negative things that happen in life and say, like, oh, but I learned something from it. And, you know, I wouldn't be the person I am today without having gone through that. So it's fine. It's not fine. It doesn't have to be fine. It has to be a learning experience, but it doesn't have to be fine.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

And I feel like we can all feel that in different ways in our lives. Um, tell us about your birth, how it started, how it went.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Okay, yes. Well, first I just want to like um hop on and add to what you're saying. I agree a hundred percent. Uh I think that was something that taught me the most from my experience was the ability to hold two things at once and the fact that they don't have to cancel each other out. Like, yes, I had a difficult birth, and yes, it was traumatizing it in a lot of ways, but at the same time, I learned so much and I'm grateful for the lessons that I learned. Both can exist and like in harmony, you know. I also want to ask because maybe we could like talk about it like later. You mentioned about like trusting yourself and trusting your body. I want, like, I mean, maybe I'll listen to the full episode of with your midwife because I feel like that's something that we talk a lot about. Like, you have to trust yourself, you have to trust your body, trust your intuitions, trust your gut. And that was something that I that my sisters or my friends kept telling me throughout my pregnancy when I would talk to them about feeling so out of control and feeling so like not, like I was just like a spectator to my own pregnancy. And everyone kept telling me you have to trust yourself, you have to trust yourself. And I'm like, what does that mean? Like, what actually does that mean to trust yourself? Because I didn't even know how. I didn't even know where to start. There were just so many voices coming at me and from so many different directions, and I felt like my own voice and my own intuition was so diluted and so silenced, and I didn't even I didn't even know where to start. So that's something that I I feel like we talk a lot about, and I talk a lot about too, like trusting your intuition, trusting your gut. But then when I actually think about it, I'm like, wait, how? Like, how do I do that?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah. And my mother Aura has a postpartum coaching that teaches pregnant women how to trust their bodies and trust their gut and trust their intuition. I love that. In moving forward in their birth in their postpartum period, and listening to your body and how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

What does that actually practically look like? Shameless plug. You heard it here, guys. Sponsored by sponsored by me.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Okay, that's the work sponsored by my job because we're recording the day. I hope my boss is not listening. If you are, this is this is recorded at night. Just ask questions. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Tell us about your birth leading up to your birth, how it started, how it went.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

So my birth started by getting induced, and that was something that I didn't want, um, partly because for two reasons. Number one, I didn't want it because I was so, so, so scared of going into labor. Like I was so scared of labor, but the only thing that felt sort of comforting was the fact that I couldn't control it and it would just come when it came, and I would just have to like sort of surrender to it. And I was looking forward to doing that where I felt safest, which was at home. And that was like my plan to go into labor whenever I would and labor at home, and I had like everything set up and I had all the things I wanted, and then eventually make my way to the hospital. But as I got later on in my third trimester, like I just wasn't going into labor. And so I hit like 41 weeks, and my doctor was like, Well, if you reach 42, like we're gonna have to do an induction. And I remember someone telling me, like, you don't actually have to, like, no one is like forcing you, like, like, you know, a police car is not coming to your apartment and like driving you by force to the hospital. You can go if you want to. And I I that wasn't within my comfortability. I felt like I'm trusting this doctor and I'm under this doctor's care, and therefore, like, this is his recommendation, and I feel comfortable with listening to his recommendation. But just the fact that I was told that sort of gave me this sense of like, oh, I'm not being forced. This is like my choice. Like, I chose to be under this doctor's care, and this is his recommendation, and this is what I'm doing. And yes. I do want to say about that getting induced at 42 weeks for whoever's listening, if this is relevant to you, it's not necessary all the time. Obviously, discuss with your doctor, discuss with your provider, make sure that you trust them, trust yourself, have a conversation about it. But if you're in the position that you don't want to get induced and you know it's safe in whatever capacity that looks like for you to not get induced, as a pregnant person, if you walk into any hospital and you are in labor, they have a legal requirement to take you on. So if your doctor threatens that if you don't come in for the induction at 42 weeks, we have to drop you. Number one, that is bullshit. Number two, they have a legal requirement to take you on as a patient because you are in the middle of giving birth. I hope everyone in the world knows that because it is always your choice. Continue. Okay. So yeah, I that's sort of like going back to what I said before about having like that 50% trust in yourself and 50% trust in your provider. Like you, you really, in my opinion, need both. And in my future pregnancies, I hope to have more of that like self-trust because I I definitely did have that trust in like my providers. So I did get induced. I really did not want to get induced. I didn't, I was very uncomfortable with the idea. I feel like that stripped away even more like agency because I felt very confined and sort of trapped in the hospital. And I had planned and I had wanted to be at home. And so once I got induced, um, that was probably one of the hardest parts of my of my because I was so scared and I was so uncomfortable with the whole idea. So that was that was definitely the most difficult part. But after my induction, once they gave me the induction medication, I sort of like accepted the fact that like this is where I am now. This baby's coming today or tomorrow or at least in the next few days. At that point, after they gave me the induction medication, I took a shower. I was able to move around a little bit. And that point was, I would say, the most empowered part of my birth because I sort of accepted like this is where I am right now. Like this is happening. I sort of wasn't in denial anymore. Up until that point, I feel like I was in denial. And um, I was able to do like my prenatal yoga, and I was listening to my birth playlist, and that was probably the most positive part of my birth, which is ironic because it was also like physically the most painful because I didn't have an epidural and I had cervadil. So I was like given this like medication to induce labor and without any like epidural or painkillers or whatever. Yeah, it was not fun. It wasn't fun, but but that's why it was so surprising that I felt like the best. I felt the most like the most empowered at that moment. And it that's also like going back to the theme of like holding two things at once. Like it was so not fun and painful, but it also I felt most like empowered at that moment. And then my labor continued, you know, as it does for a while general. So I don't want to like take all the time for the birth story. But there was at one point like a doctor who came in who was from the practice that I went to, who I did not like this doctor at all. Like she wasn't really my doctor. My doctor, I saw him like every every appointment. And then whenever he wasn't there, I would see this other doctor. And I really did not like her. And when she came into my birth, I was like, great, like there's this person who I really don't feel comfortable about around in like one of my most vulnerable moments, if not my most vulnerable moments. And I was just not happy that she was there. And she basically forced me to like break my waters. And absolutely not. Yeah. And again, that I felt so conflicted because I was feeling all these things like on one hand, like I have my own like choices and I have like my own, like I need to give like informed consent and I need to, I need to feel like this is something that I want to be happening to my body. But at the same time, I felt so like I felt like I was at the liberty of the hospital and I had to listen to whatever was happening. And she was definitely giving off that vibe. And I think that's something like more on providers than on patients, where like the providers should not be forceful and should be gentle in that way and present things as options, not as like mandated things like this is happening right now. Obviously, in the case of an emergency, that's different, but this was not an emergency. I was just in labor and I wasn't progressing the way they wanted me to be progressing. And so she basically forced me to break my waters, and that put me even more in this place of like feeling shame and feeling like disempowered that I wasn't making my own choices. That's not okay. Yeah, I'm sorry that that happened. No, it's okay. And and you know what's funny? Like, I don't know if I would, I don't think I would go back to that practice because of this doctor. I mean, it's been like three years, so maybe she doesn't work there anymore. And I don't know if this is a thing, but maybe I would go to this practice and be like, I do not want to see this doctor under any circumstances. Like, I will see a nurse, I will see a PA, I'll see the secretary. I don't care, I'll see anyone. I don't see the secretary. I don't want this doctor anywhere near me. Like just the vibes were off. And like she likes to force you to break your waters. Yeah. And I was like texting, I was texting with my doula, and she was like, no, like tell her no. And I was like, I'm trying. I'm so tired, I'm hungry, I'm exhausted, I don't have the ability to like fight right now. And your labor shouldn't be a fight, you know, even if you're in a hospital, like anywhere, it shouldn't be a fight. And I was like, I'm not fighting right now. Um eventually I, you know, I like I got epidural and I once I was pushing, I was pushing for about three and a half hours, nothing happening, baby not going anywhere. And um, eventually I needed an emergency c section. I had a fever, heart rate. I don't remember going up, going down. I don't know which one. Are they both bad? Okay, so if they're both bad, I don't I don't remember if it was up or down, but heart was doing something and the baby's heart, and I had a fever. And when they told me, like, okay, we need to do an emergency c-section, I was so, I felt so, so defeated. And I the first feel the first thing I thought was two things. The first was I'm such a failure. Like I'm pushing for three and a half hours. I didn't even know it was three and a half hours. The doctor told me he's like, it's been three and a half hours, the baby's not making any movements or whatever. And you have a fever, heart rate's going down, and we need to do an emergency emergency c-section. And the first thing I thought was, I'm such a failure. I've been pushing for three and a half hours and this baby's not going anywhere. Like, like I'm such a loser. Like, I can't even like get this baby out of my body. And the other thing I felt was like, thank God, like it's gonna end and it's gonna be over, and like this baby's gonna be birthed. And the c-section itself was so scary, but I didn't allow myself to like be afraid because it was so surreal and it was so overwhelming. And thank God I had my duo with me, and she was like amazing, and I was just blabbering away the whole time talking about like nonsense because I was trying to distract myself as much as possible from actually like I was trying to distract myself from actually like being aware of like right now they're cutting through my stomach. Like, this is so scary. Honestly, it's scary. It's so scary. Like when I think about it, when I see those pictures of me on that operating table, like with my baby after, and when I think about it, I'm like, that is so crazy. Like, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm brave because like I just did it without like having to like without making any choices, just happened to me. But like, I just want to like give a round of applause to like every c-section mom. Like, that is insane. Like you are at the l, you're at the mercy of of like this medical team, and you're going through something that is so big and it's such a big deal. And I feel like, I don't know, I feel like I didn't get that recognition. And so I want to give like other c-section moms that recognition of like you did something that's really, really hard and really scary. And whether it was your choice or not, like it's a big deal. And so I just want to like you know, like give that recon recognition. I want to give that recognition to you.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

You did something huge.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

You had a baby, you birthed a baby, doesn't matter how it came out. You did that.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

You've been an incredible mom.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Like, thank you. You're awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Anytime. You're gonna hype you up, Grammy. I'm gonna come every day and I just want you to tell me I'm a good mom. I'll just text you. I'll just text you every day. You're a good mom. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Reminder Little You is so proud of you. I saw that on Instagram and I was like, I need to post this because I need people to hear it. I need people to hear it more.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

When you realized that you were having a c-section, like they came to you and said, we need an emergency c-section. What was that moment? Like you said you felt relief and like a failure at the same time. What was that moment like for you that what you wanted for your birth or what you thought your birth would go like wasn't happening anymore? I don't know if I understood what a c-section really was. Like, I definitely didn't understand what a c-section was before I was pregnant. Because someone would have asked me, I would have been like, I have no clue. And then I read a little bit about c-sections like in my pregnancy, like in some pregnancy books, but I didn't, I don't think I fully like understood like what is happening. So I felt a little bit like maybe confused, like, what are they actually gonna do to me? So I guess confusion was is one thing, but also I really was relieved. I really was relieved and I was really, really scared, and I didn't allow myself to be scared. Like I've been in like sort of like my driving test, like when I got my license, like I was so scared that I was sort of like on pause and sort of like like didn't allow myself to feel because I was so afraid. So I sort of like paused myself and like didn't allow myself to be afraid. I just was distracting myself like literally by just talking nonsense in all like in any way possible. And also like I didn't allow myself to even think about it. So I I would say that like the fear sort of like put me in shock. And like I it definitely disassociated. Like I definitely was disassociating like 100%. Um so it was very surreal. Like it felt like a dream. Like, you know, I was also exhausted. I also had a fever. I also was starving, you know, like all these things, probably dehydrated. So it definitely like it felt like a dream, even. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. Like I'm I'm thinking back to like my birth when you said that you just started talking nonsense to to distract yourself.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

One of the things that I'm remembering from my birth is with with Ari actually.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Um there was a point in my birth that was very different than my birth with Rose. Whereas my birth, my first birth, there was never a point where I was like, take me to the hospital, I need that bedural. I was like, I could do this, I'm fine. I can go through 15 and a half hours of labor, no problem. Oh my god. But then with Ari, there was this like, I was in a lot of pain and I was having back labor. And it was like a really big difference. And there was this point where I looked at my mom and I was like, Mom, I want that bedural. I'm done. I want to go to the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Like, take me to a hospital, get me an epidural and get this baby out one way or another. I am done. And my midwife came in and she was like, Why don't we take a breath and we'll go into the bath, like we'll go into the tub, fine. Um, and one of the things that I realized for me shifted is that I just started talking out loud to myself. And like you were saying you were talking nonsense to disassociate.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

And like, think of the reverse of that.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

I was just like saying positive affirmations out loud, which is not something I ever, ever, ever do. Like, that's not my vibe. I don't do a positive affirmation to myself. I say it to my kids all the time, not to myself, even though probably should, but like it was the weirdest thing for me because I was just like, you're strong, you got this. You can do anything you put your mind to, you can do hard things. And I was like, Am I talking to myself, my inner child, or my actual child? And like it literally helped me be like present there.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

I I'm highlighting this to bring up the power of words and the power of how we speak to ourselves. Because obviously, in that moment, you needed to disassociate. You were scared shitless. Like, that is what your body needed from you in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

But just to bring that around to our day-to-day lives, we have the option to disassociate.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

We have the option to talk nonsense to ourselves and be like talking about the weather, the economy in Uruguay, like, yo, whatever, whatever's going on in the world. Or we can talk to ourselves powerfully and like intentionally, um, and like bring presence back into it. That's so beautiful. You just you like unlocked a memory of mine from when I was pushing. I was like, I'm very much the type to like speak affirmations. That's why I mentioned it all. Like, I'm so now that I know that you are. It's like so me. Um, so when I was pushing, I was like, I had my labor play this playing, and I'm like pushing and I'm like speaking and I'm like, I'm feeling all the feelings. And I don't remember if I was like rubbing my belly or if I was like just speaking to my stomach, like my baby inside. I kept saying, like, we're like, I kept saying, like, we're doing great, you're doing amazing. I was like speaking to my baby to me as if like we're a team. Like I I felt very much like, okay, like we're birthing, you know, like you're coming to the world and I'm bringing you into the world, but it's like a team effort. I think I said, I said something like we're we're a team, or it's a team effort, or I said, like, you're doing amazing. Like you're doing amazing, baby, like something like that. One of the nurses was like, What do you mean? You're doing everything. The baby is not doing anything, like it's all you. And like she said that to like try and like empower me and make me feel like you got this, but it broke the spell, like it broke the vibe. You know what I mean? I I was like, you just broke it, like you ruined the one. It's her fault. Everything I'm gonna say, it's all her. That one, but like she broke like that like aura of like that moment, and I was like, oh, like I felt foolish in that moment. Like I felt foolish, like, oh, I'm talking to like this baby that's not even born yet. And she sort of like pulled me out of that moment. Yeah, no, it's okay. But it's just funny that you reminded me of that. But I'm saying it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

She shouldn't have, she should not have pulled you out of that. She should have been like, yeah, you and your baby are doing it together because by the way, like physically, you and your baby are doing it together.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Like exactly, exactly. I kept saying we're doing this together. And I think that goes, I mean, I I would like to have conversations with people who like work in the birth space because I I I I had so many thoughts about like the people who like were around me when I was in labor because I was in labor for like a day and a half. So many staff members in the hospital like passed through my room. And there were some who were amazing, and there were some who were not amazing. And it's just such a delicate and like vulnerable space that you're in when you're working with like laboring women. And it's funny because like I'm having like the most important day of my life where like I'm a labor and you're just like clocking in for a shift, you know what I mean? Like you could have had like a really bad morning, you didn't sleep well, and like you were late, or your coffee spilled, and you're just like clocking in for a shift. And like I want to hold space for that. Like, they are coming to like work and like they're humans too, but at the same time, it's like there's so much, it's a really like sensitive and it's a really like intense thing that you're like showing up for for someone else. So it's a big responsibility, and I definitely could not do it, and that's why I don't. I would love to get a labor and delivery nurse on here. Oh my god, do you think Miriam is aggregated on the podcast? Ask her. Well, she was she was actually one of my nurses. Did I mention this last time? Yeah, I think she mentioned. I mean, not that she remembers me, she's probably had, but I wanted to like mention that it's funny because I didn't know who she was. Um, she was actually the nurse who was doing my induction. So I don't blame you, Miriam. You're great. No, but it was funny because that was actually really comforting for me to like have like a from woman present. And I felt like I didn't know who she was. I actually didn't, I had never heard of her before. So I didn't know she was like a famous influencer, but I just knew that there was this from woman I could tell she was from because she was wearing a shakel, um, who was my nurse, and that was like really comforting for me to like have this like from like sort of like like familiar presence. And she actually, when I was induced, she said to me, like, after like an hour or so, I was like really not doing well. I was crying, I was like really afraid. And she said to me, like, you should probably call your doula, like you you don't look good, like you don't look okay, like you need more like emotional like support right now. So, shout out to Mary Mizagui. She actually I mean, I had a really good experience with her, so yeah, get her on the podcast. Mary Mizagui, you heard it here. The people want to hear from you. The people want to hear okay. I want to hear what your postpartum experience was like, um, physically, emotionally. What was I mean, start at early postpartum? You gave birth, now uh. So this feeling of disempowerment and feeling like I had no agency over myself sort of morphed once I gave birth into this feeling of like disassociation. For a few days, I didn't even feel like a mom. Until I left the hospital, I didn't actually feel like a mom because my son was in the NICU. And so he was in the NICU for observation. And so I wasn't taking care of him, I wasn't feeding him, I wasn't like changing his, I wasn't anything. I was just in my hospital room pumping and trying to sleep. And I would go visit him, obviously, like every two hours, but um, I didn't feel like a mom. I just felt like I'm someone who's ill and has to be like who has to heal in the hospital. So I would say that like my post-hardem experience was one of sort of like denial and disassociation. And I really had a hard time like fitting into this new identity of being a mom. And once I got back from the hospital, all I wanted was to be normal again. I just wanted to go back to who I was before and like, yeah, now I have this baby sort of like coming along with me. But I'm just the same person, nothing changed, I'm totally fine. I remember like trying on all my clothes that hadn't fit me in a few months, and like they still didn't fit me perfectly yet. But I was like, it's fine, they're my clothes, I'm gonna wear them. So I would say that like a lot of denial and disassociation, especially because having a c-section, you need to really rest and not push your body in order to heal properly. And I didn't do that. I pushed myself way too far, I pushed myself way too hard because I felt like I was trying to prove to myself and to the world, like I'm fine, nothing's wrong. And so I ended up opening up my C-section incision and it didn't close until, yeah, it didn't close until until about like five months close pardon, which is crazy. So the reason it opened is because I pushed myself too hard, and my doctor basically told me, like, in order for it to close and heal properly, you need to really slow it down and you need to to stop. Like, you need to just like take it easy and actually follow the instructions and rest, but I just couldn't. And so now when I see postpartum moms who are like out of the house, I'm like, go back to bed, leave right now, rest. And it's it's like it's the most ironic and like sort of like twisted thing to have a mom who's postpartum. I mean, I had this was my first kid, so I had no other kid that I was taking care of. I can't even imagine what it's like when you also have a toddler or multiple kids. I don't know. Uh it's a mystery to me. It's like so ironic that in order to heal properly from birth, you need to rest and like take it easy. But there's so much to do, especially if you have multiple kids. So I yeah, like my little sister just had a baby, and whenever she is like not feeling well or she is like feeling like tired or whatever, I'm like, please, just please rest. Like, please do it, do it for you, do it for me, do it for every woman who has ever had a baby and just like actually please take care of your body. Um, yeah, exactly. I literally do that too to everyone, and it's it's one of the things we discuss in uh in my mother or if that's part of voice. Um again, absolutely. As you should, as you should. No, I need to do more shameless plugs because that's how the word's gonna get out there. Yeah, that I do that. There's a lot of identity shifting from you know, pregnancy to motherhood, from coming into your birth expecting some form of a natural labor and natural birth to being a C-section mom. Yeah. How did that identity shift affect you in the months after giving birth in, you know, in social spaces and groups and how you felt about your birth and yourself and your baby? So that's a really good question. I didn't feel affected um a lot of judgment or a lot of like negativity towards my own birth. Like everyone who I told that I had a c-section, like everyone who I told about like about my c-section, like I wasn't faced with any like negative negativity personally from my own experience. Um, I did before I gave birth, um, someone did like freak me out about inductions and if you get induced, you'll have a c-section and how horrible they are, and blah blah blah, which is never helpful. Like keep your ugly opinion. Also, like informing someone is different than fear-mongering. Like, there's there's they're so different. And so, like, informing and like education is important.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

It needs to come from the right person if it's education, it needs to come from your dua or your midwife or your doctor.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

It can't come from some stranger down the hall who decided that just because their induction turned into a c-section means every induction is different into a c-section because that's just not true. We all know that. It's true. Well, I remember like when I went for my six-week checkup, I saw my my doctor, like, is in flat push, but I don't know if like he deals with like too dominantly like from women, and maybe he does, but I don't know. When I was leaving my six-week checkup, I saw another from woman in the waiting area, and I had never seen a from woman in the waiting area, and I was waiting like for like to talk to the the secretary. And she was like in her third trimester, and she was like talking to me. She's like, Yeah, I'm in my third trimester. I've never knew I've had like five or six kids, I've never used this um doctor before. Like, did you have a good experience? And in that moment, I'm sitting there six weeks postpartum. Still in your head, you're like, no, still very fresh and very like the experience was very raw. And I see this woman, this woman who in this moment, I was thinking, like, what is what's what's it gonna help? Like, what is it gonna help if I say to her, like, no, I actually had a horrible birth? Like, she's she was like maybe 40 weeks pregnant. She was like, at the end of her pregnancy, like she's gonna switch doctors, she's gonna switch providers because I told her, like, I don't think she's gonna do that, first of all. Second of all, if I like it's not gonna help her by telling her that I had a negative experience. Like, all I can do in this moment is like just like whatever, like just be positive and just like be empowering and you know, and so I was like, Yeah, I had a good experience, whatever. Like, she didn't ask more questions, and I could tell in that moment she wasn't asking actually like how was your birth, she was just sensing like a she was getting a sense of like the vibe, and also I wasn't lying because I actually did like my doctor, and I don't blame him for anything, or I don't I didn't have a negative experience with him. I, you know, no, you had a negative experience with the with the experience. With the experience, exactly. So I was like, I'm not gonna put that on on this random doctor. So I I didn't have like any negativity like directed at me, but I did notice like a lot of I would say like subliminal messaging or like subconscious things that people would say, like in general or in public, that could be taken as hurtful. And it really did teach me this lesson of just being way more careful with the way I speak and like the words I use in general, but especially for birth, because you never know. I mean, I I don't want to say, like, oh, you never knew who's listening, and therefore you shouldn't say these things. Like, no, you shouldn't say hurtful things because they're hurtful.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who's listening.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

That's that's the first thing. But I think but like adding on to that, it's also like we don't know what words can affect other people. Yeah. I remember like I was at this, like mommy and me, and this um woman was like sharing a story about like her sister or her sister-in-law, and um she's there was like who her sister-in-law was pregnant, or her sister was pregnant, and there was like complications, and the doctors were like threatening a c-section, and then she did something, or she wrote a rev letter or something. I don't remember if it was like a medical thing or a spiritual thing, but it ended up being that like she didn't need a c-section, and she ended up birthing naturally, right? And everyone in this mommy and me like gave a sigh of relief and were like, oh my gosh, Barak Hashem, and like gasping for air at like how amazing this story is that she barakashem didn't have a c-section. And and like it was so dramatic and it was so intense. And I'm sitting there a few months post-partum from a c-section, and I'm feeling like so. The thing that I went through, it's a sigh of relief if it doesn't happen to people. The thing I went through, which was difficult, is like an intensity, or it's like something to be avoided, or it's something that like is making people act in this like dramatic way. And I want to also share that again, like this theme, the theme of this podcast, like two things can exist at once. Like, yes, c-sections are an intense medical intervention and it's an intense medical procedure. And I don't think that someone like it's not, I wouldn't say it's a desirable thing. Like, I don't think anyone goes into birth thing, like, oh, but I have a c-section. Like, there are some people who medically need to have a c-section for medical reasons, or and some people choose to have a c-section, and like that's you know their own choice. But I think we can like hold these two truths that number one, yes, c-sections are intense and they're hard, and there's many reasons why someone wouldn't want them. They're also life-saving, yes, and at the same time, they're life-saving. And I also think that we need to be, as mothers and women who are in like birthing spaces and birthing, like in in birthing conversations, like we need to be more uh comfortable, we need to be more aware and more sensitive about how we speak about c-sections because there's been so many times where I've heard women say, like, give over their birth story. And I I want to add, I want to mention this because it's very common, and I don't say this to like shame women who do this because it's so like normal. I've heard so many women share their birth stories and share what they went through, and then they always add on, and then I almost had a c-section, and then they threatened a c-section. I could have had a c-section, and I'm not saying don't use that kind of language, I'm just sharing that, you know, as someone who did have a c-section, like that can be very alienating to hear someone give over their story, and then the thing that I went through is this like narrowly avoided situation. And um, again, I'm not trying to police people's language, I'm just like trying to like bring awareness that like you know, we should all be mindful of the way that we speak. Like we should all be aware of right and I think that we're I also think that like like I mentioned at the beginning, like there is a lot of judgment. I I feel that like from both like groups, like natural birth mothers versus like you know, medic medicated birth mothers or c-section moms, like there is a lot of judgment that like sometimes we throw at each other. I think it's because it's like a reactionary judgment. Like we're scared that the other group is judging us, and therefore we have to like put up this shield um before we can like the have the judgment like directed at us. Um, but I also think this is like my own theory about why c-section moms sometimes get ashamed. I think that there's this like mentality that shows up not only in birth, I think also like in when it comes to like bodies and weight and a lot of other things, that if you didn't work hard for it, you don't deserve success. Like I see this brought up a lot in the conversation about like GLP ones and like weight loss. Like, if you didn't suffer through weight loss and you didn't like put in the work, then you don't deserve the outcomes. And I think a lot of that, I think that's like a I think that's a negative, I think it that's a negative like mindset to have. And I actually want to recant what I said before about like hard work. I don't think it's hard work. I don't think we feel like if you didn't work hard for it, you don't deserve it. I think we feel subconsciously, if you didn't suffer for it, you don't deserve it. Just because what? I'm not on a GLP one, but I don't feel that way. No, I'm I'm not talking about I'm saying that as an example. Right, I know, I know. I'm saying like I see the discourse online being like, why can't you just work hard and put in the work and lose weight? And it's like everyone's in terms of of pregnancy and and birth also like birth is hard. It doesn't matter what you went through, right? Giving birth naturally, unmedicated is hard. I say that from firsthand experience. It is freaking hard. Giving birth on an epidural is hard. It might be a little bit easier because I don't feel it as much, but it is freaking hard.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

You are still doing the work, your body is still doing the work. Having a c-section is still hard.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Right. Whether it was a planned c-section or an emergency c-section, it is still hard. No one chooses to put themselves in a situation that is hard. In order to transition that identity from person to mother, that heart is going to be there.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

And it doesn't matter what you went through. Exactly, it doesn't matter what you went through, it is going to be hard. You don't always get to choose your heart. Right. Sometimes you do, and that's great, but sometimes you don't. An emergency deception, you don't get to choose that you're gonna have a really hard recovery after.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Like there's no such a thing as an easy way out with birth. Yeah. It's the baby's coming out one way or the other. Exactly. And it's gonna be hard. But what I think that really made me like the the thing that I I'm thinking about here is that I think there's this like this idea that like in order to earn something, you have to suffer for it. And I see that in the discourse about like weight loss and GLP ones. That's why I was mentioning GLP ones before. Like, I'll see people write online. Like, if you didn't put in the work, then you don't deserve to like lose the weight. And it's like, but why do people need to suffer in order to achieve something? Like, even if you're not, you can work hard and you don't have to suffer, you know? And so I think that also like is where some of the shame or the judgment of like c-sections comes from, where people say like it's the easy way out of birth. Like, I'm sorry, there is nothing easy about a c-section. Like, everyone who's had a c-section will tell you there's nothing easy about the procedure itself, there's nothing easy about the recovery. It's not an easy, easy thing to do or to recover from. I also wanted to mention something else, which I was talking with a mom that I met at like the motherhood center. And this was also a few months after my my birth, and she was asking me about my c-section, and I was telling her about it, and she was saying how her first was was a c-section baby. And this was a few months after when I started to like really think about what I had gone through, and um even though I was still like going through the recovery. And I said to her, like, I'm coming to a place of like acceptance where I feel like even though it was really difficult, I really do feel like this was Hashem's plan and this was the best thing for me because it was Hashem's plan. And she got this like really disgusted look on her face, and she said to me, like, Well, how could you say that? That's like saying that someone deserved to die because it was Hashem's plan. And it's a good thing that they died because it was Hashem's plan. Kate people that have that narrative, I literally cannot. Well, it's not even like that narrative, like she was just like completely spinning my words. Like, yeah, and I said God's plan, and it is also okay to be on board with God's plan. It doesn't matter what that plan is, and it doesn't mean someone deserved to die just because it wasn't God's plan that they should not walk the earth anymore. Right. So she also like completely spinned my words because that like that's not at all what I was saying. And I and I said to her, like, I didn't like fight back because I just like didn't feel like that was like the moment to like really fight back. But what I wanted to say to her was like, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. First of all, I'm speaking about my own experience and like my own life. I'm not putting this narrative, I'm not putting this idea on anybody else. I'm speaking from like from my own experience. And to me, this is what's comforting me right now. And also just because, you know, I can say it was meant to be. And just because I believe and I subscribe to this belief that whatever happens is there for good because it's in God's plan doesn't mean it's not difficult to accept and doesn't mean it's not difficult to go through. You know, I can hold two things at once. I need to get this like put on my mirror, like holding two things can be true at once, you know? And that's really been like the theme of my birth, like as I reflect on it now, years later, um, that I'm at this place where like I'm okay with not being okay. Like I'm okay with the fact, and I've accepted the fact that my birth wasn't great and it was difficult and it was a traumatic experience in a lot of ways. And I'm at this place where I'm okay with that, and I can say that. And accepting the fact and being okay with the fact that it wasn't okay doesn't make it better, doesn't erase all the pain. It just allows me to come to terms with it and accept it. It allows you to learn from it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and I really do feel like I really do feel this way. Actually, something that I heard on another podcast this week. Um, I actually didn't even hear it. I just saw like the Instagram tip of it. Um, so I'm gonna mention it and with credit, uh, Adar, love you girly. Um, because this is something that I wrote down um between the last time we spoke and this time because I wanted to bring it up that C section has has seven layers of tissue cut through it. And in Jason, we know that anishema has seven layers of descent. And the point that I had wanted to bring up before I heard it on another podcast, which guys definitely listen to that podcast.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

It sounds really good.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

But basically, the the seven layers that anishema, the seven realms that anishama passes through before entering a body is, you know, it's the stages of symptom, which is contracting light, and it's the spherice that the soul is shaped by.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

So like we can see that like anishama comes down in, you know, seven, the seven realms.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

And specifically we can spheris, it goes through, you know, chachma bina dos, etc., tomachos, that by the time it gets into the body, the body now encompasses all those spheres and encompasses all those realms, all of that light, all of the, yeah, all of the I guess chambers of like what the Nishama goes through are now internalized in the body. What I heard, the reason that I started looking into this when we spoke originally is because when we spoke last time, I think you said a line that like stayed with me for a little bit. You said, like, it almost felt like I didn't give birth.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

That like, you know, you didn't give birth, your baby was just kind of like removed from you.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Yeah. Not giving birth doesn't disqualify your baby's arrival.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

It like there's seven layers that are cut through in the body to have a C-section, and you can shift your mindset and see how the baby coming through each of those seven layers is even though it's not specifically coming through seven layers, it's just taken out in one fell swoop of the seven layers. One fell swoop. One fell swoop. Um that it can be symbolic almost. Yeah. To birthing in a shama. I saw that clip and I and I really I had never heard of that idea before, and I thought it was really beautiful. One of the things that that I I didn't feel at the time it took me time to like fully process this was the biggest, like the the biggest Avaida of birth is the idea and the concept of surrender. Like you are surrendering to your body, you're surrendering to nature, you're surrendering to God's plan and God's way of bringing this baby into the world. And I had thought I was gonna do that surrender in my living room with my candles, with my music, with my birthing ball, with my bathtub, and then make my way to the hospital, and then like the baby would pop out, you know, like my birthing plan. But I ended up needing to surrender a different way, which I ended up needing to surrender by lying on an operating table and really trusting that this is the plan for me and this is the best way to birth my baby and surrendering to this really scary situation. Um, and I needed to surrender, even the fact that I felt so disempowered and felt so um, I need to surrender my own control over to God. And I did that. I didn't feel like such a like a conscious surrendering because, like I I mentioned, I felt very like disassociated. But to me, that was looking back the most like beautiful part of my birth. And when I think about surrendering, like in my day-to-day moments that aren't as intense as having censored or giving birth when something isn't going my way, or when keep going, when really little things are happening, or big things when I'm having like a relationship, like problem with a friend or a family member, or um issues at work, or when I'm just overwhelmed by by daily like life stuff. This idea of just surrendering and what it means to actually surrender, it's funny because I mentioned like from the beginning, like what does it mean to actually trust? Keep going. Like, what does it mean to actually trust your body? What does it mean to actually like listen to your body? And I feel like we talk about surrendering to God, and I'm someone who naturally just like wants to always be in control and naturally always wants to know what's happening. And so when I say surrendering to God, it's it's like mind work, but it's also like body work. It's mind work of just saying like it's like it's sort of like self-soothing. At least this is how I express it and experience it, and just saying, like, you're safe, you're okay, you're held by a shem. And then like physically, it's just like letting go and like doing my part and doing the best I can and letting go of like the stress and the pressure, loosening my hands and just going on with like my day or going on with whatever I'm doing, but with this like lightened feeling of knowing and trusting that Hashem is with me. And so I'm really like I'm very like proud of myself and I'm like happy that I'm at this place of like being okay with not being okay with my birth. And it also taught me, it taught me so much like about not passing judgment to other people. I really I I also harbored, and and I'm not perfect, I still maybe do harbor these like subconscious feelings of judgment towards other mothers who maybe birthed in a way different than me. And I've learned so much about like letting go of like judgment and holding space for other people who choose differently than me, and holding that and holding these two things at once. That number one, someone else can make an opposing choice to my choice, and that doesn't make my choice wrong. That makes my choice the best choice for me, and that makes their choice the best choice for them, and like that's okay, and we all choose differently, and we all do what works best for us, and that's the way life should be. And it's it's it's a really satisfying feeling to do that, to be able to hold uncomfortable things comfortably, and it's not something that I if that I'm able to do in all areas of my life, and it's definitely in a veto for me, and it's something definitely that I would like to and need to grow in. I want to thank you for like having me on because I know that you deal more with like the natural birth and like holistic mothering space. And deal with women and more. You deal with women, yes. All women, all births, especially like in that like pregnancy stage where people are planning what their births are gonna look like.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

With the people that I've worked with, I've noticed that there's so much, like, there's some choices that we make in life that have, you know, reasoning and decisions behind them, and then there's some choices that we don't fully understand.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

And what I've noticed with you know, helping people trust their bodies and learn about their choices and things like that within like my coaching has been that when there's autonomy behind a choice and when there's like reasoning behind a choice, those choices stand on three legs, like they have stability. Yeah. And like all choices are good choices. Unless they're bad choices.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

I no, I know what you mean. I think also that like there's this misconception that just because like first of all, we don't need to other people don't need to approve of your choices. Like, if there are people who don't approve of your life choices or your birthing choices, like that's that's okay. We're not here to appease, like, and I say that as someone who has a really hard time with not holding myself up to other people's standards. Like, I say this not as someone who's like above this, I say this as someone who struggles with this. Like, it's very hard for me to make choices or to that I feel like other people are judging me for or to sit in other people's judgment. But I know in this like higher part of my brain that my choices aren't meant for other people to make judgment over. They're my choices are for me to make to the best of my ability to better my life. And I don't need to explain my choices to other people, but I and and and I don't need to explain why I'm making choices or why it's better for me. But I also think that that's why I was saying I appreciate you having me, because I know that like the choices you made for your birth, which were the best for you. Yeah. I just think there's a lot of like maybe judgment or a lot of um like fear in expressing like the way we birthed, because maybe other mothers who chose differently will think like less of us or will judge us for them. And I just that's what I want to say that like, first of all, even if they do judge you, like that's okay. Like it's okay, like it's really okay. It's we're gonna be, we're gonna we'll be we'll be safe and we'll be fine if other people like aren't okay with our life choices. But I also think that like it sounds like very 2026 therapy talk, but we we should hold space for other people's choices. Um also like in general. Like I'm I'm seeing specifically in like the birthing space of like mothers and like it shouldn't be threatening to me to have a friend. I had the most like textbook, even though I do consider myself like pretty crunchy minded, I had the most like textbook like medical like birth and postpartum. Like I formula fed, I didn't breastfeed, um, I had a C sep chain, I had an epidural, all these things. And I have friends who had home births, who I have friends who free birthed, I have friends who who who who exclusively breastfed till you know kids were like two and a half, whatever. Like all these things, you know, who make their own baby food. Like, yeah, and you know what? Like that's great and that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

And like I think it's more, you know, then yeah, well, like what's more important than even like being okay with sharing your story and not feeling that judgment is the awareness that sharing your story brings.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Yeah, that there are times where it's medically necessary to have a c-section.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yeah. Thank you so much for the story.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

I feel like this conversation is an ongoing conversation of awareness and honesty.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Thank you for letting us sit with it. For everyone, for anyone listening, wherever your story lands, I hope this feels like you can give yourself permission to let go and let God, even a little bit, and to hold space for the two things that can be true.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

Thank you for spending this time with us. If this conversation stayed with you, consider sharing it with another mom who might need to hear it too. Until next time, trust your intuitions, move gently, and take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Good night, mamas, even though you already know it's not night, so that we're recording this in the middle of the day.